Welcome to the Love Sex and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple ton teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom and live an inspired life as a natural intuitive and heart centered leader. Well, everyone to another episode of Love Sex and Leadership. I am extremely grateful today to have a dear friend, Margo and Nan with me and diving into this conversation of really all three of these because I know it's a conversation, you know, very well and you've been in this a very long time. Uh And I also just wanna give gratitude when my book, The Embodied Man came out a couple of years ago, Margo beautifully endorsed that, you know, really, since that I've formed a beautiful friendship and, and I'm here in Bali Landing and grounding. We all often catch up and have uh dinners and coffees and I really appreciate what you've brought to this field and just who you are in the world. And I'm very grateful to be here with you today. Thank you. And I, I can say also that I appreciate the man who uh brings together the qualities of being centered male and yet feminine, uh soft, very good looking, very sexy looking and very deeply looking into the truth of, you know, the subject of leadership and uh awakening and tre and sexuality. So, it's an honor to be here with you because I know you understand the topic and I'm very excited and looking forward. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, I, I think the, the first thing I want to dive into is like for you, um, I know you've done lots of interviews through the years, but when you really first started to bring this work into people's lives, like, what were some of the first, like the major challenges you felt like you, you met? I mean, I know there's been a lot through the years but when, you know, look at where people are now around sexuality and there's a lot of, you know, holding back and I can only imagine where it was, you know, when you were really bringing this into the world, I'd love to just hear some of that perspective and what you've observed, you know, between then and, and what you're seeing now. Well, you know, it started out in a very unusual way because I was studying psychology at the Sorbonne and I was very unhappy with what they were teaching. It was analyzing human behavior through statistical analysis, you know, so so many statistics, so many people behave this way. Therefore, the character is this way. I hated it. So then I met a therapist, an American therapist who has a growth center in London. So we fell in love. So I moved to London. Then I decided I want to study, you know, humanistic psychology, but not in his center in another center. So I started to study this. And then they told me the program director, his name is Vires and he has a center in Holland. And he's going to direct the program here in London. And your appoint your first appointment to meet your director is going to be on Monday at six o'clock. This is the address you go downstairs, second door on the left. Ok. Fine. So I go there. I'm very innocent. I'm from a bourgeois kind of high society background and I'm like stepping into the wild new world and I go down and I open the door, what do I see? I see this kind of dark skinned man whose head is, you know, popping over bubbles of soap in a bubble bath, you know and saying to me, come on, come on, join me in the bathtub for your interview and I'm going, 00, ok. Ok. So this was my first interview with this new director who then proceeded to put me into an extremely intense marathon in which I was attacked on all sides by people treating, you know, accusing me rightly of being superficial of being a false blonde, you know, always smiling all the time. Totally not real you know, not in touch with her feelings and pushing, pushing, pushing until I finally exploded, which was the goal. And I got very mad at everybody. And then I started crying and then I learned the connection between anger and sadness and tears. How sometimes you have to go through your anger, you know, to open up your heart, you know, and to, and to allow your emotions to be expressed. So that was my beginning into humanistic psychology, deep immersive right into it. And then eventually, uh many things happened which I actually describe in my book, Love Sex and Awakening. So if you want to see all these adventures of initiations, you can read that book. But the first group I led was simply offered to me because the group leader in the center that my boyfriend was leading was sick. So then they said, ok, you are studying psychology, you go and lead that group. Well, I had never led a group. So it was wonderful. You know, I just jumped in and I found that, uh, you know, I had the talent and I could handle it. Yeah. And then I continued to study and I continued to explore and I went to SLN and I studied psychology around the world. And then my first sexual experience, uh I was 17.5 and I was a virgin. A me, I had a complete mystical experience where I became pure light. And as you know, when you become pure light, you have much information available to you, but you don't have boundaries, you don't have schools, families, educations, countries, you know, you are just light you everywhere. So, uh I woke up, I realized that sex was a door to the spirit. Sex was a door to the mystical dimension. So that got me going. So as soon as I could, I went around the world and studied all the traditions of sacred sexuality and uh ended up at the Woodstock Festival and, you know, took acid, you know, the whole thing. And um yeah, so my trajectory into tantra actually started in a very, very strange adventure, very unexpected. So I went to, you know, I was in Paris studying and then I finished my studies and I went as II, I went to America because I wanted to find a guide for my first acid trip. So I went to see T mo T who gave me a wonderful tab of acid and told he gave me the address of a friend of his who was potentially being my guide. And this friend was an Indian guy, uh who was very ambitious and wanted to become a guru and had recently come to New York. And so we made a deal, you know, that I was gonna take my acid tab and he was gonna be along the corridor in another room and he was a psychic. So he was be able to tune in with me, what I was going through and he was a little bell and if anything went wrong, I could ring the bell. Ok, fine. So I changed my clothes. I, I took all my underwear off. I put a nice white dress, you know, and I took my pill after many homes on the, on the pill and I started my journey and that's the first time that I could say today that I went in the past life, that was completely daunt, you know. So I realized what that was and um then I was lying down and I was navigating through other dimensions. And the next thing I know, I kind of come out of my navigation and I find myself in the yum position sitting on the knees of this guy who is seriously appeared in the room when he wasn't supposed to. And then looking a little deeper, I realized that, well, my pelvis was like an aquarium and in this aquarium was a fish flowing and the fish was my friend's vajra or my friend's penis who was floating in my aquarium. But because I was tripping and I was in a jolly mood, I kind of looked at this aquarium and felt this fish and then I started to see many other fishes visualizing, you know, tripping and then I started laughing my head off and, you know, when you laugh, it's a kind of a mini orgasm. And then you shake your pelvis. And pretty soon my friend's fish dropped out and he was very ill at ease. You know, it was like, obviously he was found out. So we had a salutation and he went back to the end of his corridor and let me alone. So then he brought me at the end of the trip, he brought me to the taxi station. I went home, I took all the vitamins and I slept and everything was fine with me. It was fine. I had no problem, no trauma. I just thought it was a funny thing, you know, to suddenly be invaded by fishes. You know, I know you put that and you know, when I wrote my book, that stories in my book and my American publisher called me and says, you cannot, you know, you cannot write the chapter where you say that you were basically raped. You were on a kind of a day trip and you have fun and you laughed and you saw fishes. You know, all our readers that they have not had such a good experience are going to be very shocked by the way you put it across. So I had to kind of tamper my whole story and kind of, you know, bring a little more down to earth expressions about it. But anyway, so that was, you know, my many different introductions to contra, you know, the mystical explosion, the invasion of the fishes, the Woodstock festival, the, you know, and, um, yeah, and eventually I went around the world and I did a lot of groups at Selon fantastic experiences. And I didn't, I didn't lead groups. I didn't lead don groups for a very long time. I wanted to explore. I was curious and I learned, and I learned and I practiced 20,000 therapies which then allowed me to avoid all the traps you were talking about with our friends such as, you know, exploding your emotions as a woman and not being able to contain them. So, um I, I try to remember, yeah, I think, you know, I remember the first contra group. It was quite wonderful. It was with VH, you know, my, my teacher. So it was wonderful. It was um I mean, you know, it was all kind of walking on the beach, all this. But the serious stuff started actually because those groups were not really contra groups, they were just therapy groups. But when I went to see her, uh suddenly after some time spent at the Ashram, he called me up and he said you're gonna be leading the first tra group in the Ashram and the Ashram. You know, it was not legal at this point to do these things. This was in the seventies and I looked at him and I said, usu, you know, I'm sorbonne trained Western psychologist. I have no idea how to read to group. What am I gonna do, you know? And then he looks at me, he laughs and he says, oh, well, if you don't know what to do, close your eyes, call me in and I will do it through you. Now, you could think that this would be an honor. But in my case, it was the most horrible thing he could have done because I was struggling to find my own voice for the first Don Brook I was writing, which I was doing at home behind the astra. So I didn't like that. Someone would come in, you know, and tell me I'll do it through you because I'd already thrown out manuscript. Number one. Too much influence from my publisher. I had already thrown out manuscript number two. Too much influence from my husband and now too much influence for my master. So anyway, so the first group happens, everybody walks in naked. We've all been medically tested. It's pre HIV time we walk in men and women all sent personally by OSU through a Darshan with the master. You couldn't come otherwise. And we're all naked sitting there and I'm going OK. So what, what do I do now? This is supposed to be a contra group, you know. So I do nothing. I just sit and wait and sit and wait 15 minutes, go by half an hour, go by. The women are watching the men, the men are watching the woman, the steam is rising, the cooking pot. Is cooking, you know, and at some point, maybe 45 minutes into the process, suddenly, you know, some woman says, I hate men. And that was the beginning of the breakthrough, you know, and the man said women are bitches, you know. And so I thought, ok, here we go, you know, and then they started to scream at each other. Exactly what you were talking about in the previous talk. Scream and, you know, the deal was you don't hit each other. We had agreed, but I was going around and encouraging them to scream and to let it all out. And then you could see how healthy and wonderful it was to have the possibility of allowing people to actually express, you know, all the cultural repressions and all the things that had been hampering them in their sexual life and, and all the abuse that they had gone through. Man. It was big. It lasted hours and then it quieted down and we all took a group shower and then came back and now it was time for the heart to open and the group continued. So that was my first real serious group that you just naturally kind of found yourself inside of. And, and did you feel like in that moment there was a spirit or energy of just something that kind of knew what to do in a Yes, yes. It was, uh, you know, recently I was interviewed by the Ministry of the interior in France who was doing a inquiry about this topic of Don. And then they, they asked me so what was Osho for you? And I said, which I mean to be true that Osho of all the masters that I have learned from that I had hang out with, he was the best. And I said, why? Because he is the one that really taught me to trust, going very deep into my own intuition, into my own soul and receiving the information in the moment of what had to happen. And that because I could trust that and I didn't need to bring it through a book or, you know, through some kind of ready made formula because I could trust that. That's why I became a good group leader I believe, you know, I, I love that you share that because that's something for me in my own journey over the last 15 years. Like there was a lot of study and a lot of research. Now I find the best thing I need to do is just empty myself out is just to let myself become a channel of spirit and the answers and the things I need are right there. So yeah, to, to hear that now from you is it's like that kind of validation of Oh yeah. OK. You're doing exactly what you need to do here is this makes sense because my logic like maritime military brain is they need all of that. And so that's like, oh, actually I can just listen to spirit. I can just let myself be a channel of God. And it's extreme. It's very extreme because at some point, you know, I work in many countries and at some point I was working in Germany and I had lost my German, but I had gone to a master who was talking in English and was simultaneously translated in German, which allowed me to take notes, you know, over a long period of time in English and German. I mean, I was assimilating all this very deep long time. And then when I went to teach in Germany, all of a sudden, you know, I was thinking the word in English and poof, the word in German fell in my brain and I could find myself speaking German fluently just like that, you know, I mean, I had learned German at school but I had forgotten it. But to say the degree to which we can perceive, you know, through our, through our non analytical brain is possible, you know, uh you know, a question for you with what you saw initially in, in group spaces and tuner groups, you know, many years back compared to what you see now, especially around sexuality where I feel like pre HIV. And before these things, groups were maybe a bit more extreme in some sense, you still can see groups in that way. But where do you feel like that differentiation is, and do you feel like the, the field is lacking because of that not inability to let erotic body flow? But there's just so much more legislation and laws and, and, and, and some of it is from a place of deep integrity and reality and also some of it is coming I think from just a changing society. So I'm just curious your perspective, especially around the sexuality, uh erotic component inside the group space. Well, you know, I developed a book called The Art of Sexual Ecstasy, which was completely experiential. And where I asked myself the question, what is an orgasm? You know, how do you f you know, develop a full body orgasm? I went to OSU, I looked at the Kundalini meditations and I was studying biotics and I realized that it was not complete this meditation, you know, the things had to be added. So I wrote the whole process called the dynamic streaming process, the art of relaxing in high states of arousal. And little by little, what happened is my interest was to model the sexual orgasmic experience in the group room in a way that was as complete as possible as highly energetic as possible, including everything that normally happens in your sex life, but no penetration. And so people were left pretty high by the end of the day and there were condoms under the altar and they were all encouraged to make a date you know, and to meet in the night and to repeat in bed in their intimacy, what they had learned during the day and then to bring their feedback the next day. And so this is how I proceeded. You know, there was never any so called temple nights where people were making love. But I have no, you know, how do you say judgment or resistance to the sexual process? I think it's a great thing, but I'm beyond it now. At my advanced age, you're very young, beautiful. You are. So I, I am now, you know, studying what is the passage and the relationship between uh the orgasm of the body and the orgasm of the spirit, which is bliss. And I'm getting more interested in the ways and the shortcuts that can take us to bliss because I have discovered as a therapist, which I was in the beginning that therapy as it was practiced, you know, gestalt and bio genetics and psychoanalysis. And all these things took a long time, you know, to get to the root of the problem and to solve it and to discharge, you know, all the charges. And so I, I invented a shortcut which has worked until this day. And I'm not the only one who invented it, but somehow I discovered later it existed. But in my reality, I developed this thing called the inner fruit. So it's the equivalent of the SUSA. But the SUSA can be dangerous. If you channel sexual orgasmic electric energies to the SUSA, you can go into places that are not good. There were books written about it. So I developed this central channel and a lot of my work is due to high intense energy work developing the orgasmic response on each of the chakra levels until you get to the higher Samadhi point at the crown chakra. Now when people arrive at that place and they can expand their consciousness to become one with all that is they are healed. OK? Because they know that the small problematic contrast seeking contradiction that their ego is going Yan Yang Yan Yan Ya about, you know, is basically nothing compared to this incredible expensive place where they discover their sovereignty as a divine human being. And when you discover your sovereignty, you become the master of your destiny. You can, you know that you don't have to listen to mommy and daddy and your government and your whatever to decide what is good for you and to decide what if you want to lead. You know, it's a huge jump and it's a big healing. You know, because from that place, you can go back down and you can see all the blockages you create for yourself, but you are much more able to take responsibility, you know. So that's one point that is very important. And in this travel to the bliss to the orgasm of the spirit, there's many other points, you know, in the heart is the compassion. In the third eye is the discovery of what the Buddha you know, give enormous importance to which is the witness. Now, when you are able to have consciousness watching itself being conscious, ok? When you are able to come to that point, you have a moment, a split second of total freedom of choice, OK? You see you witness yourself and you know that I like to in my work show like there is two paths, the dark and the light. So you have the one, the dark one that is the one of resistance where you go Yang Yang Yang Yang. And this is not going to work about sex especially OK. And then you have developed what I call your personal mantra, which is, you know, I don't know it could be I'm an orgasmic woman or you know, and then you remember this mantra, which is basically the ultimate outcome of your success where you want to go as a sexual human being. And if you repeat that at that moment of that total moment of witnessing consciousness, witnessing itself, and you give yourself the choice to choose between the ego place or you know the sovereign spirit place and you choose the sovereign spirit place. You got it made. That's it. You know, you can navigate through all the things we were talking about and the resistances and the way you can remember who you truly are, you know, you are being of light to a being that can achieve total success in whatever you want to achieve. You know, and for me, the definition of total success has definitely changed, you know, curious to dive into that more. I just want to break down what I heard you say in that is that there's this place of kind of that split in the road where you can stay almost in the personality of the ego. And then there's also the place of recognizing the transpersonal soul that's timeless, that's spaceless, that's eternal, that's connected to the all of everything of a distance. And you know, in that capacity to choose through the witness, where where does the, the someone who wants to stay in the body, but also stay connected to that space. So this is where I see a lot of spiritual traditions, they just ascend, they ascend. And one of the things that draws me to tre is the pace of descending into the body. But I also see people really always chasing that bliss, experience out of the body, even in the field of tantra. And so like for a, a pilgrim, someone finding their way in this where, where's that communication point to be able to find tune that, that navigational point and consciousness right there? OK. I was telling you that the central channel was called the inner shoot. OK. When you make love, when you arouse your excitement and your sexual energy, you like a musician that is ready to, well, if you have done your work to open your flute, OK. To know how to play the flute. That is a preliminary thing. But let's say that you can do that. Now you take this energy which we do all in my workshops and my trainings intensely and you navigate this energy, which is, it's an incredible tool for life. I can tell you it's the opening, the central channel is that's it. But anyway, so now you can feel your sexual energy, but you can pull the sexual energy to the heart, you can melt with your partner, feeling the oneness in the heart, opening your heart, opening your compassion to the other. Then you can move it to all the other central channels which uh as a central chakras, which then gives you a completely different quality which, you know, maybe we don't have time to analyze here. But when you're at the height of this wonderful blissful moment, you haven't abandoned the route. You go back down to the route and up the route. And this is where the yum practice of, you know, men sitting in lotus and women sitting around him and being inside each other. That's when it comes in because we teach people in my groups in my seminars in the love and ecstasy training how to open that channel together. So they have the sex sensations and then they navigate the sex sensations up the chakras, they give it through their breath to the other partner who, you know, exhales it down and gives it to you through your sex, etcetera. So there's a whole weeks of practice, you know, where people can basically explore the alchemy that the middle aged magicians were talking about saying transforming base metal into gold because that's what it really was. They were secretly practicing, tore. But because they were in the moment of, you know, the inquisition, they had to let everybody think that they were creating gold and they were, you know, you know, but that's what it really was, you know. So uh there is no question about abandoning the sexuality. No, no, no, not, not in my school in sky dancing tantra. You know, the fuel is the energy of life, but the energy of life is sexual, but it's also beyond sexuality. It's actually what, what lights up every movement in your life, in your body, you know, your peristaltic movement, your heartbeat, your breathing, you know, it's a, it's a base of life. So you connect with that all the time and there's 1000 ways to do it and the more you do it, the more you realize the incredible uh perfection of creation, you know, and when you get into such a moment of perfection, what are you going to complain about? You know, I was just one of the groups, I was just leading one of the practices I love is just a laughter meditation. And that, that deep place of laughter because I always find it until you can laugh about it. Like that thing still has you. That thing still has you until you can laugh about it. It's still like gripping in some aspect of your personality that hasn't had a place to actually just laugh at the big cosmic joke of what's happening here. But, you know, I think that lovers today, one of the things I benefited from a lot through my curiosity, I have done so many therapies. And there was a point where I was the number one encounter group leader in Germany. When I walked in the room, everybody was busy in their pants because an encounter group is basically allowing you to shout and scream, you know, at the other person and tell them everything you hate about them. That's what wasn't it? It was in high fashion now, it's not in fashion anymore. But what I'm saying is like, if you had a chance, you know, to, to, to learn about the importance of catharsis about b energetics about all these things, you start to understand how to regulate your emotions. But one of the ways I understood it the best, which I think should be taught to all your men and your women is like this. I had a wonderful partner. We're still teaching together, he's American and we live together and being you know, 2030 years old and having emotions, I would barge into his office and I was like, right, and he would like, be Olympian and look at me and say no, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do it like this. You know, we have to take an appointment for a meeting. And I thought to myself, what I have all these emotions and now I have to wait until I have an appointment for a meeting to let them out. This is ridiculous. But ok, I loved him. You know, I had to listen. So I thought, ok, five o'clock tonight, that's when I can let it out again if it's still there. And then after that, we were facing each other, we put a pile of cushions in the middle and all my gripes and my complaints about this guy went to the cushion and he was sitting there, you know, Olympian kind of cool male taking it all in by the time I was finished, you know, the heart opened and we had a hug and that was the end of it, you know. So it's like we have to find ways of understanding that according to many masters, emotions are just an expression of the mind and that waking up is not stopping there. You know, that, that waking up is realizing that this too is an illusion, you know, and the one, the one that is pushing your buttons is your best teacher. Showing you where all the, the, the blind spots are that you haven't been willing to love honor and appreciate inside yourself. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Another question around just leadership. I love talking about this intersection um between sexuality and leadership and, you know, having run a successful company for a long time now and, you know, being a woman and, and just curious how that journey has been for you around, you know, having teams and crews and many teachers and you know, where some of the you could say both the pitfalls as well as the areas you feel like you really have, have, you know, done well and celebrated and what, what you've learned the most and that kind of leadership aspect specifically around the, you know, that kind of entrepreneur if you will. Yeah. Well, um it all started with me realizing very early on that I couldn't be a good teacher and an administrator. At the same time, I knew it in my twenties already. So I picked an administrator uh out of the blue spirit, picked it for me. You know, someone in the group that was participating, she happened to be a midwife 35 years later. She's still my organizer. Number one where we have many more now. But so that was the first thing I noticed, you know, if you want to be a good leader, don't pile it all on yourself but choose what you're good at and get people in a team to help, to help you. The next thing is to be able to really build a good team, you know, but the good team can only be built if they go through the process. In my case of the love and ecstasy training, which is the sky dancing contra process. They have to have taken that, that process. They have to go to the place where they fall in love with this works. They have to go to the experience where it has changed their life because it does that. It's a very, very deep and radical process. Two years now, it used to be one now it's two. So it's three weeks a year. So once they're in there, they want to participate, they want to stay in the whole process. They want to be a team member. So that's number two. Number three, give people the right title. So don't take them in a workshop and say, you know, you're gonna be staff or you're gonna be a team member. Say to them, you're going to be the guardian of time. You're gonna be the guardian of knowledge, the one who takes notes about the program. You're gonna be uh the guardian of logistics, the one who relates with the house and so on and so forth. You know, you gotta be Margot's guardian angel. You get her a cup of tea when she wants it, you know, whatever they're guardians, you know. So now this got developed so well that we have a manual for the guardians, you know, and all the jobs that they have to look at and the guardian of the temple and, you know, change the water flower and all we have it man, tip top. You know. Now we have a problem that the guardians want to be guardians every year. They don't want to give their place to the newcomers. They like their guardianship. And then, ok, so how do you, how do you, you know, build a team, you have your meals together, you have your lunches together and I bring the main problems that I have seen in this morning's process and put it in the middle of the table and I asked each of the team members, OK, how would you in your best wisdom, resolve this problem? They give their solution, everybody gives their solution and then it's my job to say, well, I could take a little bit of what you said and what you said, but I would solve it this way. So this is what we're gonna do because I have the authority finally. So everybody participates, you know, and then the other rule is OK. When the evening sessions are finished, you're free. And if you want to be lovers with people in the team, hallelujah, have a good time. And um you know, but people work hard, you know, starts at seven in the morning, goes until 11 at night, for sure, for sure. I'm, I'm curious and we were talking a little bit in between sessions here, but just how you've observed both personally as well as, um, you know, professionally with the, the power dynamic that gets to be at play when you're in a group space that's worth working, working with erotic energy. You know, the natural projection that a student puts on teacher. Um, you know, I'm curious for both the, the sky dancing perspective as well as, you know, what you've seen and observe and where your edges have been with that. You know, and so it's a very hot topic in this country, sexuality field. There's a lot of things circulating around with it. You know, I just love to hear your kind of take on that and, and, well, you know, one of the reasons why we're very successful is because we have an absolutely uh iron clad uh ethical uh guidelines, you know. Uh and uh some of them are, if you're a group leader in the process of sky dancing, you don't have any romantic interaction with your participants for the first. Now, it's gotten down to six months, but in my time it was one year. So I have some participants, uh you know, who waited a year and called me back a year later and we became lovers and so on and so forth, you know. But um so, uh that's one thing, the other thing is we've had all sorts of situations, you know, horrible ones where we've had to throw out one of my co-leaders because he was, you know, fucking the participants because they were seducing him behind my back and they weren't using condoms. I mean, you know, they were participants who had somehow not resolved their mother father complex and they wanted to destroy the mother father couple and we've had, you know, a black magician, you know, who, you know, did horrible things that also had to be thrown out. And we had all sorts of situations that we had to deal with. It wasn't easy, don't try is not an easy path. That's why it's called the shortcut for the courageous, you know. You know. Yeah. So how that I dealt with. It was remembering something very important that Freud has taught us that when the man and the woman come in the group room, ok, all the participants are there and they are looking at daddy and mommy who are going to be healing their wounds. Ok? Now, if there is a group leader there who has not taken care of their personal sexual needs, they are going to start to be leaking and they are going to, you know, try to pick these guys, these girls for the night, etc I saw it all happening in Pula because the beauty of it when it all started with under Osho, there were no rules, no guidelines, no schools where Tonto was taught nothing. It was created between Osho and the group leaders. That was me. So I had open door to Osu, I could ask him any question. But as it is, uh that's not the way to do it because what happens is there's transference to the group leaders, but there is counter transference. And if you don't realize the counter transference of the one that is transferring on the participants, you create such a confusion, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't look like that in the beginning because then they will bring forth the argument as they have here around in Ubud that well, every high level initiation, you know, the tore teacher takes the one who is ready and she's initiated into being a Tahini and now they make love and she has the cosmic orgasm of the time. This happened with every big teacher, nobody knows about this. I happened in my position to know that every big teacher in the West in America, you know, every guru coming from India teaching that you know this and that everybody had a secret lover. Some of these secret lovers wrote books when the guru disappeared or went back to India or died or whatever. And these books always testified about the big confusion that was left, you know, in that secret lovers place and life and sexual life after this happened. You know. So yeah, I mean, I was lucky enough to be chosen as the third concubine in a, to relationship with a great country guru who was a magician and had two wives and the two wives approached me and asked me if I wanted to be the third concubine and they were very rich so they could take care of my finances, which at the time was great for me because I was coming back from India writing a book and broke, you know, and it was an incredible experience, you know, to, to, to go through that these rich people and meet the third concubine and him having such an incredible reputation as a lover. People were queuing up down the street, you know, to have a session with him. So, you know, I had a lot of experience, you know, and how I handle it is, it depends on the situation, you know, it depends on the situation. I take it as far as it can go, allowing the person, my co leader to do whatever they need to do. You know, I don't intervene, I don't interfere. But we, we have rules, you know, before we start and we agree on the rules, but the rules are often broken when the, when the person has no, no integrity, you know, so integrity, integrity is very important. You know, I, I teach for a number of different organizations and some, you know, one of the touch of schools I teach for, there's no genital touch and it's just a very clear safe container. And I see beautiful advantages in that. And then another school I teach for there can be much more interaction and I see advantages in that and I see disadvantages on both sides. So I kind of navigate this place of, you know, I'm putting you on different hats on the group space that I'm walking into. I love that because I get to be very good variety of different ways rather than always having some. Then you don't get attached as this is the only way. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the, I love that you bring this up about every, you know, teacher come across has had some level of initiation. And this is a conversation that often comes up when this dialogue comes in. It's like, where is that initiation really present? You know, I look at my own to journey. It was actually, you know, here a long time ago, met a beautiful to woman that really initiated me a lot into this path and, you know, introduced ways of love making and connection and communication that were quite natural to me. I just never had the context and she was very much an initiatives for me. Um And I see I love when a female body has been able to support that for, for a man in that sense. And of course, I see the very gray area that comes in, especially for someone as myself, as a male body teaching in this field, I, that level of integrity, I feel like I have to over exemplify and it's easy for me. And I've, you know, I got laid a lot more before I was teaching tantra than a that's important, that's important, you know, to really, to really, you know, get your brothers out as they say, you know, I, I tried everything, you know, and it's important and I, I tried not to teach to for a while just because of the, the misunderstanding and the perceptions around it. But in my meditations, it just kept leading me back there. And I said, actually, I need to help create a better name for this in the world and help people understand more of the the mystic connection of meeting heaven and earth and being, you know, divinity and doing great, doing great. You know, if people ask me what is, you know, the the don teacher you could recommend, I always mention you and Sarita. Well, thank you. I uh I very much appreciate that. Thank you. Um Yeah, another, you know, question in your own journey right now. Obviously, you're, you're getting younger by the day. More beautiful as well though. Thank you. And what's, what's on the forefront for you? What, what is it that the live your body that the life force inside of you wants to create and manifest and bring you into this world? Well, you know, my last tour was absolutely extraordinary and I had a great group leader, co leader. Uh We love each other a lot. He's Italian. He's fun. Anyway, we did Brazil, we did all sorts of countries. And at the end, he asked me, um, do you have any free space on your agenda before your 80th birthday? And I looked, and I said, yeah, there's a week here. I said, ok, please let's go to Portugal. I'll organize your group. OK. So him and his girlfriend who was a very smart organizer, they put together this incredible group where we had 8076 participants, plus the team. Um coming from 28 different countries and four different continents. OK? From all over black, white, transsexual gays, everything was there. Uh Buddhists Christians, you know, anyway, and I looked at this group and I said, if, if I pull it off, you know, then I can truly say that my work has a universal, you know, uh impact and I pulled it off and the title, I let my co-leader choose the title for this group. And it was the Golden Keys to Happiness. So I thought, OK, what are my Golden Keys? And I don't remember all the five because we have five days. But one of them was laughter and humor and another one was tenderness, which we have to talk about this, by the way. So anyway, it was a great group. It went well and then we went and we had an incredible 80th birthday with three days of surprise rituals for Margo. And you know, it was really beautiful. Then I announced that I was stopping working and then I had a revolution. Everybody complains. You can't do that. You're at the height, you're at the height of your career. How can you? So I said, OK, I'll take a sabbatical. So I've been very, you know, real, I'm not working, that's it. I'm not working. Everybody is asking me, could you do this? That? No. And so my sabbatical ends next July. And then it's an open field and my attraction here because I've went into deep study of meditation and the Buddha and, you know, mystical teachings. And um I did groups at the Osho Ashram, the no mine group I did, you know, I went in a monastery and, you know, realized I had been in a Buddhist Tibetan nun in the past life. I was very touched by the nuns. I interviewed them. I thought maybe I have to become a nun myself again. And then I realized, oh no, this is not for me. But basically, there is a tendency of wanting to realize that when you are 80 you are entering the phase where you have to prepare your departure. Therefore, you have to let go of attachments. And so I'm working on this, you know, and uh and then I've devised, you know, the ultimate Kan choose Margo's Don R Kan. See if you can resolve it. OK. Everybody ready. How can you develop the art of being desireless at the height of desire? And if you resolve this, Kan, it will teach you to one of the roots of the Buddhist teachings. OK? And I'm now looking into this is a very bad title and I'm sure that my teachers, my enlightened teachers would berate me for saying that. But I'm going to say a short cut to enlightenment. And the reason why I got to that point is like this, I did a month long silent meditation retreat recently, not the one in the monastery, but the one before and at the end of this retreat, I had a catharsis with God and I got very mad at God. And I said, listen God Goddess, you guys, you really did a bad job. You produced, you know, elements humans and you manufacture them, you produce them so badly that they have to incarnate again and again and again, to clean up the mess that they have left in the previous life that they don't even remember about. So, you know that the game is rigged already. You know, why couldn't you create humans that just need two lifetimes and then they wake up and they're done. And I had the most hilarious answer from God. And the answer was Margo, just imagine what would happen if this had been the case, we would have a completely overpopulated paradise. We would know where to put all these souls and then I started to imagine traffic jams in paradise. And I thought, oh, ok, they're taking their time, you know, so that they can kind of create the space in paradise. OK. So then I thought, well, you know, one of the roots of my success is because I created this shortcut to therapy with my central channel there. But now is there a short cut to enlightenment? So there probably isn't otherwise, you know, it would have already been found, you know, but I'm looking who is, you know, finding these things and I'm finding out very interesting things and I'm, you know, going to work on this, this particular topic, which really would lead me to explore the possibility of bringing more of the Buddhist teachings in the bedroom or into the toric sphere. You know, because actually all the enlightened teachers I work with always talk about the qualities of enlightenment like, you know, uh compassion, of course, is one of them and Anita, you know, uh Anita being equanimity, you know, uh and being aware of, uh you know, what Repulses you and what attracts you and how you lose yourself in those directions, you know. So it's like, it's such an interesting topic to bring, you know, this level of spiritual awareness into your tonic dimension. You know, because I mean, tore is the path to awakening. Really. We talk about sex a lot because the Western civilization has been so repressed about sex, then you have to ask yourself why. And the reason is very clear, the governments and the religions want us to be, you know, contained about our sexuality because they know that if we become blissful human beings, we are uncontrollable, ok? We become sovereign beings and there is no contra, you know, no containing us and who is going to pay their taxes when they want to be blissful all the time, who's going to pay the taxes if we're blissful, uncontrollable humans connected the source, right? So anyway, now that's why we love to be in a wood and in Bali is because that's the place where spiritual rebels come to hang out. You know, it's definitely a fair share of those around here. So 22 questions coming up, you know, and I love what you share around enlightenment. And I feel like this word in spiritual circles gets thrown around in a lot of different ways. And people talk about enlightened masters and, you know, and I'd love to just hear like AAA grounded framework of for you. What really enlightenment means? And is that something that's even really attainable when we're in this human body? I mean, some people say that you can, but I, I find this also the place of, you know, we're eating and we're shitting and we're getting happy. We're getting sad and, and where, where is that place of that? Like enlightenment in practical day to day life. Like where does that exist? Well, Osho has a very nice quote about this. He says, enlightenment is a process that begins but never ends. Ok. Now I've had many enlightenment moments in my life and I could kind of like qualify them as saying that I'm sitting on the pillow and I'm completely 100% happy and satisfied with everything and I don't need anybody and I don't need a partner and I don't need a teacher and I don't need anybody. I am done. That is a space that men hate in a woman. Ok? That is a space because it's very threatening to them. The moment a husband or a boyfriend sees that the woman is complete and they don't need them anymore, they've lost their role, what are they going to do? So they come in and they try to bring in all their troubles and their contradictions and, you know, kind of suck off the enlightenment. And then she gives, you know, her love and presence because she thinks that maybe her enlightenment will be able to kind of deep. And as we say in French, you know, kind of get over on to them to help them out. And if that doesn't work, unfortunately, and so basically, then she loses it, she loses that perfect moment of perfection. So then goes on now I woke up, you know, one time. Uh and it was an incredibly beautiful experience and it lasted six months. Ok. And it was again my second husband who brought me out of it, as I was saying. Um but uh I believe that these cumulative moments of awakening have their presence and their function in a mysterious way. And one of the ways for me has been to bring down the impression of stars and stripes, you know, that we have about enlightenment, you know, fairies flying in the sky and you know, and the magic wand, touching your forehead and all the things we went through in India. Um and simply arriving at the place where you are in a kind of a place of stabilized content. OK. Contentment is there and it's not there dependent on so many things or people and stabilize exactly that because it is, it is, it is your nature, it is you being you. So you know that that is what I would say, you know, is a stepping stone to enlightenment. But in that, in that situation, there's still ups and downs and you know, when you read the details of, you know, the story of the Buddha, you know, I mean, I read an incredible book recently that I really loved and that was one of the best books on meditation called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond. And it was by a man named Aja Brahms, a monk. That's how I ended up in this monastery in Perth. He's wrote that book. Um So in there, he's mentioning quite close, quite close to the Buddha, even in the Bali language, the Buddha's language. And he mentions these levels, which of course, if your ambition ambitious like me and probably you, you begin to scratch your head and say, aha, this is what I want to conquer, which is of course a trap. But the levels are ok. So you sit in meditation. Now, first of all, you have, I had to get to the point where you can sit your body on a pillow and you have zero pains anywhere that's already an accomplishment for which I have to say Jeremy, our friend helped me immensely beautiful. OK. So then uh after that, the body can leave the pillow, you can start to fly, then your breath starts to disappear and then your sensory perception start to disappear. And then if you can stay in that space, stay and stay and stay for long periods of time, you start to have these psychedelic manifestations that are completely mysterious and which is you cannot control and you don't know where they come from. And um there are these kinds of revelations that come from mind with a big M OK? And um they're called Anita. So uh so this author talks about the various levels of that. And obviously, it's clear he went through them. And so I, I went to his monastery and I chose the right place in the group room. And you know, it was everything was Right. And I had the most beautiful experiences. But the only problem was, I don't know if I should say that, you know, publicly. But, you know, you often have a fantastic book and a fantastic author. And you think that, you know, the Dharma talk are going to be like an extrapolation of their book. And then you get there and you have a doting grandfather who is kind of answering the questions of their audience, which is, you know, you know, their trouble or whatever they are having their difficulties in meditation. And he picks out an old memory that he calls uh uh uh Nicha uh no simile, which is an example uh which is kind of like a boring old memory from some adventure he went through in his life and, you know, he's teaching about mindfulness, which is witnessing in the present moment and he's all the time going back to the past to bring some kind of old story, you know, and that's where I realized, you know, I've been to too many masters and I've done too many practices and I don't have patience for these kinds of things. So, you know, I had to bring in my patience and so I didn't get much of his D talks, I must say, didn't quite feel. But uh why was I see you that? Yeah, about enlightenment. Yes. So, you know, you struggle, you struggle with your ambition, you struggle with you, let go it's not easy. Meditation isn't easy, you know, and I'm talking about not the beginning stuff, you know, I talking about. So, because I was in a Buddhist nun, Tibetan Buddhist nun in the past life. I'm very attracted to the nothingness of it all. I mean, I was, I was speaking with you earlier this morning and, and I was speaking about Padma and Baba had enlightenment, you know, supposedly in yam and, and having that with this transport. And you know, II, I love the, the, the fable of that as well as the reality in, in one way, shape or form and wondering like, can you know that reality also exist in today's world? And I'll give you two examples. OK. I went to Bhutan several times. And as you may know, Bhutan, uh you know, adores Buddha, Padma Zam Bava, you know, it's uh the place where, you know, he flowered. That's why they have the monastery of the tiger's nest, which was built, which is an incredible place. You have to visit that place. If, if you love Padma Zam Baba, you have to go there. But you know, it was built over one of the caves where he did his Hermitage. So, and um you know, their central practice which is described in a book called Sky Dancer uh was the Yabu. OK. And uh through revelations and visitations from Padma Zamba in this life, I was able to develop the seven steps of being able to master as deeply as possible the yum process. Now, um It's very interesting to note that in Bhutan, I was with a very good guide and friend who took us to many monasteries where unfortunately you are not allowed to take pictures. And one of them was a very old monastery beautiful, like a round building. And you went in and at the first level, you walked around, it was completely round where all the unenlightened human beings. So there were people quarreling and dogs barking and people falling in the water and people having fights. And you know, so then you climbed on a very rickety old ladder which you know, you could have fallen off any moment. You got to the second floor and there was the beginning of waking up, but there was the Buddha giving blessings and there were people offering, you know, bringing offerings to the Buddha and you know, all these things, the spiritual dimension was waking up. Then you climb the Ricky to your ladder and you know, more and more broken and you got to the last floor. And what did you get? You get only Yabu Buddhas and Yum. You had the white Yum, the green Yabu, the red Yum, the yellow Yum and the golden Yabu. And what is it, is it that the awakening is when you go to the origins of the mother, father, male, female original creation, which is the marriage between energy shakti and consciousness Shiva. And when they emerge, they produce the universe. And when you go to the monastery of the Tiger's nest, there are many chambers and they're not always open to the public. I had the good fortune the first time that they got it all open and the top one is an incredible room and it's like Kal blue with only golden yabes floating around the ceilings and the walls and a completely beautiful golden shrine with golden Buddhas and golden Yums. That is, you know, the highest manifestation of the yum enlightment, you could say, wow, wow. And I called it in my book Riding The Wave of Bliss. Yeah. Hm. Beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's a uh it's a space I felt in my own love making where definitely, you know, I, I feel I met God for the first time. I'm seeing that in the eyes of my beloved being able to connect to something beyond just this 3d reality into something far, far greater. And I also see how, you know, the West and just society is, you know, blasphemies, this, this connection between um God and sexuality where, you know, in so many ways it's so deeply intertwined. And what what shocked me the most is just how much that has infiltrated our world and seeing and you know, hearing these stories that are well beyond just our present day reality, see so deeply connected, you know, even looking at, you know, Jesus and, and, and Mary Magdalene, like this connection that's always there through history. And then even now looking at spiritual traditions that somehow try to deny sexuality and it, it's, it's shocking to me, you know, and to really feel uh like my soul when I see that and I hear these stories is like, ah, ah, ok, I, I feel the resonance of coming home. I feel the resonance of deep knowing and then I also feel the density of that first layer of what you're speaking about in that, you know, in, in the temple that so many people are in. And you know that I I kind of question sometimes like if I guess this conversation with God like that density is there's a necessity and does it always need to be, you know, in, in that sense like that density to be able to connect heaven and earth, be able to connect all these pieces to be able to love thy partner, love thy neighbor? Like is that density and an absolute to be able to reach that enlightenment? Or are we just, you know, kind of fooling ourselves along the way? OK. Is that density, an absolute repeat that sentence? Is that density that we have to navigate in life? You know, so many times we, we think about going through the spiritual journey and then we realize, oh way back in the beginning when I was so simple, that's actually I had the answers looking at from the child's perspective, like the enlightenment of a child, like looking into the eyes of a child and seeing the wise Buddha like creature. And then we go on this journey of life and failing and succeeding in everything and then, you know, just towards the end of life coming back, like is that density a requirement or is this all just a big cosmic joke, joke? You might as well just laugh along the way. What is the ultimate question, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that the simple fact of being human puts you into the contrast of duality and there's no avoiding it. OK. The fact that you just born into a body that you have to deal with it, that you have to feed it that, you know, it's alive. Uh And then, you know, according to the Buddhist teachings that were very, very strong in those days, you are carrying the karma uh of your past lives. And so if you have a good life and this life is because you did good is very moralistic by the way, not so different than the Catholics, yeah. But anyway, uh because you, you, you acquired good karma in a past life, you know, so thinking about this in my retreat, I thought, well, then, you know, it's very easy to start to feel like there is an entitlement point here that if you did good in this life, which I considered, I did maybe, you know, very well, having, having built sky dancing don't try and having it flower the way it's flowering. So that's already my ego saying that, OK, because in fact, if I'm awake, this is absolutely not important because there's no self here anymore. OK? There's no ego. There is no me to say I did this. I did that. This is all perfectly unimportant, right? But nonetheless, if I consider all these matters, I think, oh, well, I was good in this life. Therefore, if I had to be reborn, I will have a good life when I'm reborn or possibly, I could even choose what kind of life. OK. And then now when I'm talking or I'm looking or I'm listening to the Buddhists, like in that monastery, according to them, I have no idea on what level I'm gonna be reborn. I could be reborn. A mosquito. I could be reborn a cat, a dog. I think that doesn't make any sense. You know, if you're so, there's, you know, in all these people that are supposedly, you know, passing the perennial teachings on down the line, there's tons of contradictions, you know. So, uh but anyway, as far as the distance between, you know, this dimension and the enlightened dimension, uh my best story, my, my simile um would be uh the story told by a master called Aravinda. Him, Madera who wrote an incredible book called The Immortal Self. And Three Lifetimes ago he was part of a family of immortal masters who supposedly are still alive in a secret valley in the Himalayas today. And they called the Amaria. And uh somehow intuitively, he was guided to them. And he arrived in that valley to discover that he was meeting one of the masters who had been his father three lifetimes ago. And he was able to work with him to clear a shadow he had on his heart about the death of his mother and so on. So this is this episodes. All these stories from this journey to visit the masters is, is amazing because it shows you, yes, there is a place on this earth alive today, you know, with enlightened masters who don't want to mix with the world who are in a very protected area that supposedly has had no ne negativity for thousands of years, you know, and who are sending their blessings wherever it's needed around the planet. So you read this book and you think this guy wrote it on Ayahuasca. But because I know him fairly well and I've worked with him for 10 years. I would say he's honest, you know, so whatever he's talking about, he went through it. So, you know, that's happening too, so many realities in this reality. And as we were speaking earlier, I mentioned the word tenderness and you, you were, you were saying there's something alive in you and that I'm curious what you pick it up. Well, I think that there's one race of people that are completely ignored in our culture today and I, I'm scratching my head about this and I don't know what to do about it yet, but it is, what do you do with the older people? You know, I mean, the roles are very limited if you have created Children in the family and you've been lucky and you've had good karma. You have your place. You're the grandmother. If I talk about the women, you're the grandmother, you have your grandchildren, everybody surrounding you, you get to see your Children all good. But if you have decided to sacrifice your normal life like me, for the love of your teachings and your passion about exploring, you know, to what do you do? You know, you're 18 years old, you're an older woman. Nobody pays attention to you. Nobody is interested. Nobody is going to think to have a date with an older woman unless they're fairly awake already. And they have some, you know, curiosity about sharing wisdom or something. And the one element which is missing the most. According to many of my friends of this age is tenderness, the ability to be simply spending 15 minutes, 20 minutes in the arms of a person that shares from their heart tenderness with you to nurture that part of your being. It's non existent, you know, and this is somehow something that I was having until recently my friend is now leaving. I'm not going to mention names but, and um yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to miss that because he was a very skilled, he was a Toria who didn't know he was a tom trick that happens. And also it happens that the woman sometimes can take something that she shares with someone and she transforms into a beautiful psychedelic to trick experience and the other one doesn't even have a clue about it been there in my earlier days for sure. So anyway, I'm saying, you know, uh we, the women, the grandmothers had such an important place in some of the indigenous cultures of the time in the Amazon and so on. We have no place here in this culture that is going on. You know, I feel that every group, every man's group, you know, should have a moment to open up the floor to the wise grandmother, you know, love that. Well, the, the the floor is open at any time with one of my groups. We love that. OK. Well, let me invite me into your next men's groups and I have no idea. I have no agenda. I don't know. But I would like to, you know, have an experience to impart to the consciousness of these men that are so busy and exciting about, you know, picking out the best cake in the pastry shop and, and they have four cakes per man. So many, so much available. Yeah, I understand all this. I went through it. But then there's many other realities, you know, and there's many other dimensions in tore. And, you know, there is the perennial fairy tale which exists in every tradition which is that, um, if I, uh the prince or the princess arrives and kisses the frog, she turns into a goddess. But, but then, you know, there's also the tradition in tore that you kiss that the old woman shows up and she's perfectly disgusting. And I played that one out with one of my boyfriend. He was beside himself. I played that, that witch dimension. He was, you know. But anyway, so, so the old woman shows up, Bali is full of these statues. You look at the statues, you see all the old demonic women with their pendulous breasts and their hanging tongs and you know, what do you think that represents? You know, it's like these are witches, they are magicians. They are part of the psyche of the human beings and they are completely ignored in the, to considerations of today, you know. Well, I love that you bring that for us. And, uh, you know, one of the things I appreciated it a couple of years back and we were spending some time together and he, he said, Aaron, I'd love if we went out on an adventure together, we went for a nice waterfall and every time we catch up, we always do fun. Things and I, I appreciate that just your directionality of what you want and desire. And I feel like that there's a tenderness and a vulnerability in that, that I think creates more deeper human connection between, you know, it's not that important. I'm very happily living without it, but I'm watching the culture. I'm watching what's going on around here. And I'm saying, you know, that's, that's a missing point. It's a missing point that, you know, and the, and the people that are not paying attention to that, they're complaining about the unwise behaviors of their girlfriends and they're going around and around in circles starting again every three months, repeating more or less the same things, you know. Well, why don't you get a little bit, like, open your mind and hard to, you know, the grandmother, the grandmothers have a very important part in many of the indigenous cultures of the world. I absolutely agree. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm thoroughly enjoying these conversations. I feel like you and I should talk for, for hours and hours about all this. I love it. Um, and, you know, one of, uh, one of the questions I'd love to ask you is, you know, I'm just about half of your age. So if you could speak back to your, I'm 41. If you could speak back to your 41 year old self and where you are now, what would be three things that you would want to uh communicate to that 41 year old self, especially around love and sex and leadership. Well, there is only one problem in this is that uh at my age, my memory is completely shifted and changed and it's much more a presence in the now and it doesn't really have such a clear vision of what was then. Like, you know, I remember parts and pieces and scenes and stories, but I don't really remember who was this VGO when she was 40 years old. What was she doing? Um But OK, see what's there, see, see what spirits exist. Well, I would say the same thing, you know, practice, don't draw every chance you get created. You know, I did that create, take sacred moments in your life, you know, and when you've made your money after a seminar and your bag is full of gold, take a week off and go into some kind of ecstatic, wonderful exotic place and set up a to practice, you know, schedule and realize when you do that thoroughly that you will enter into a practice that you calculated to, to, to, to, to last an hour. It will uh it will surprise you that it lasts 456 hours and you come out of there half illuminated and completely inspired about, you know, what you want to share with the world. You know, and I think that, you know, more people should be doing that, you know, more, more to practice, grounded into day to day life. So, OK, 33 advices, ok. Um You know, practice contra live well. Uh If someone offers you an incredible piece of land instead of having the attitude that you had in the past, that you didn't want to own anything, buy it, that would be one thing so that you had some kind of grounded place like you did yourself, you know, and whenever I had this incredible golden opportunities, I let them go. And then another thing I would say is be aware that you have Attackers in the house of finances. And so these Attackers are waiting to kind of steal your money. And so now you have to find, you have more time to find, you know, what are the rituals and what are the magicians and what are the ways to counter these Attackers? So that, you know, you don't end up like I have ended up, you know, with having many, many experiences in my life where my savings and my money were stolen up to the tune of €300,000 and so on. But, you know, I think it was to teach me the joy of being in the now whether you have money or you don't have money, you know, and I think that's important. It's kind of a detachment. So I would say, yes, learn about detachment. I would say, yeah, those are the points. Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. For your time and energy and, and beautiful presents you bring here and yeah, I just appreciate you. I love our friendship together. I love our conversations and just very grateful for who you are as a being and everything you brought into this field. It's a, yeah, it's a deep pleasure to have you in my life and thank you for the same to you. I, I feel it's always a pleasure to hang out with a beautiful, aware and loving man and I'm only protesting about one thing and that I think that you're taking way too long to be away from here. And now you build yourself a beautiful house in which you want to write a book and you being you are, you're succumbing to all the temptations of the 10,000 invitations that people are giving you, you know, and you go here and you go there and you go here and you go there. What is this about? You know, why don't you create in your schedule? The possibility of coming back home once in a while. I, I appreciate you sharing this and you're definitely not the first one to say that. So it's, it's my life in Bali will be landing more and more and I'm slowly not gonna be traveling as much as I am, but I, I love that you're sharing that that's really hitting home. And thank you for having me here and uh wishing you the very best Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. See you next time.