Welcome to the Love Sex and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple tonic teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom and live an inspired life as a natural intuitive and heart centered leader. Welcome everyone to another episode of Love Sex and Leadership. I am very excited to have a dear friend who I've known now for many years and who is definitely, I love a title of kind of the, the, the leader of a sexual revolution. She leads with her heart wide open. She is a best selling author and she's just a dear friend. And whenever we get together, we were just recalling, even as we talk here, we just laugh a lot. We have a lot of joy and a lot of laughter. And that's generally the, the nature of our friendship and relationship. So, so grateful to have you here. Welcome Laurie handlers to the show. Thank you so much. We did a whole show once on laughter. We, we did, we did. That's a, that's a great uh great conversation many years ago. I think we laughed for a long time. We laughed a lot. We couldn't stop laughing. I do have a sign on my door. If I open my door, it says General of the sexual revolution. I love that. Yeah, I just open it up. There's like a placard on my door and it says General of the sexual revolution. So, yeah, well, that feels, that feels very fitting when I, when I mention you and I'm teaching and you know, in, in different formats, I often describe you as a um ageless woman who basically is, I think maybe 75 going on 25 is about the, the way I often describe it in terms of your heart, your vitality, your love, your, your, your life force that you carry. I love that. Just this last year, I got to witness your marriage with Michael. That was such a, an amazing heartwarming day just to feel the two of you coming together into heart and romance and really uh soothe my soul so much to see you so happy and in love together. Thank you so much. And also I'm setting a new fad which is not getting married until you're 75. Don't rush into it. Why? Why? Um this was my, this is my first marriage and uh it's not anything I wanted to ever rush into. So it felt really good to do it at a time when I know how, who I really am different from like worrying about what other people think of me or doing something with my parents. Wanted me to do it or whatever. I just, I did it on my own terms, like I do most of life on my own terms. So I see that and I love that about you. So I was really glad you were there and it was, it was lovely. I had it, I mean, I even had a good time. Um, because a lot of times when people are in their marriage, like in their wedding, they're not having a good time. They're doing what everyone else wants them to do and that, that wouldn't work for me. So, yeah. Yeah. Laugh. Good. Life is good on one's own terms. Laughter is, is good for sure. And I know you just recently came out with a new book, uh, Sex and Happiness and you know what, what's great after, um, you know, gets better with age. You have better with age, right? Yeah. So, so tell me a little bit about that because that's, you know, I often when I see you say, quote, older people coming to events and retreats are just out there in society. Um, there it is. Yes. Get it. Amazon Sex and avenues. It gets better with age. Someone complained. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Someone complained. Where is it that, um, these legs were not legs of an, a 50 year old. And I said, what are you talking about? Those are legs of a 50 year old anyway. I'm sorry, I interrupted you? No, no, it's ok. I, I, you know, my, my question really is, you know, so I look at my, my parents which are right around the same, same age and, and they're definitely in a very different way with their physicality, with their body, with their mindset. I love them both dearly and I'm very grateful for them bringing me into this world. And, you know, I'd say you're definitely a, an anomaly in some ways, I'd love to see more people like, with such vitality and, and youth and, and, and sex in their day to day life. But what, what, why, why not? Like, why have people challenged with it so much? Like, why did it feel like? Is it a doctor thing? Is it people buying into beliefs? Is it a body thing? Like what really, you know, gets people down the most as they get older? It's all the above. Um First of all, we've not been taught to really take care of our bodies. We haven't been taught how valuable physical exercise is most people. They are saying that this sitting, this chair thing which is so uncomfortable. Um They're saying that this is the new cancer sitting is the new cancer. Um People are sedentary, they're uh they're comfortable. And uh I've always looked as when people say I'm so uncomfortable, I wanna be more comfortable. I'm, I think to myself, well, the only thing I know that's comfortable is a coffin you know, like, like you're dead and you're lying there and there's nothing, there's no irritation because it's over. Like, there's always irritation. Life is part of, like, overcoming little irritations or looking the other way or finding a way to redefine them. So, um, I think it's all of the above. I think a lot of it is, um, the media, you know, like the Pepsi generation or whatever, it was like everything, it was geared towards youth, youthfulness, youngsters and then, but the baby boomers are the biggest population on the planet and I'm the beginning of the baby boomers and your parents must be somewhere in there, you know, like in the middle of the baby boomers or the end of the baby boomers. And we were the generation where everything was just like, OK, what do I want? Boom, I could have it click, I can use a remote being I can, you know, microwave my food, like everything was given to us and invented as a convenience. And that convenience is like the comfort of a coffin. It's we're really uncomfortable if we have to do anything. So it's a for me, it's an effort every day. I get up, I have to stretch first of all cause I have aches and pains. So I've just every single day then I have to move. I have to swim. I have to go to the gym. I have to walk. I have to something every single day. It's not like this body is a gift. If I don't treat it like, it needs to be like, like walking a dog. I have to walk my body like I can't wait until later. I have to do it now. So that's like part of it and then, you know, having and the attitude of I'm never stopping. Like, not the, that, that those messages that told me that I was gonna be expendable when I was 50. You know, I was just gonna dry up. I wouldn't be attractive. I'd be invisible to people. I had to change that for myself. I remember, you know, I remember being on a date with a guy. I mean, I was much younger. I remember being on a date with a guy and, um, there was another guy talking to him and, um, since we were together, me and the first, the second one ignored me. Like I wasn't hit on a b because I was with someone. So I was invisible. That was my first experience of invisibility. And then, you know, it's happened to me many times over the years. I like I'm older than people. So I'm invisible to them, but I make myself not invisible. But it's like I'm not child bearing age, I'm not hit on a ball, I'm not whatever. So I must be nothing. So, you know, I don't know, your parents have good, you know, they're in the whatever they believe to be happening. But it's when these things, when our bodies start not moving anymore or not behaving anymore in the ways we want them to. Like there's very radical things people could do. And you know, me, I do a lot of radical things. So anyway, it's, it's a lot, the belief system is a lot, the media and then it's a lot like, OK, no one talked about this. What are we supposed to do? There's no answers. And that's, that's part of my whole Walt Disney thing. Like Walt Disney told me that I was gonna be in a, you know, in a really fancy party dress at a ball and some prince was gonna have to find a foot and put a glass slipper on it. And first of all, he couldn't find me like what a dopey prince. And second of all, I didn't find the prints. No. And then second of all, he's supposed to ride me off into the sunset on a, on a white stallion and we're supposed to live happily ever after and we have no communication skills. We've never been taught that. We've been taught algebra, geometry, earth science, a foreign language. But I if, if you're the love of my life, I have never been taught how to communicate with you, but I can do geometry. Who cares about geometry? I care about the most important relationship in my life and I have no skills and I'm supposed to live happily ever after with you. And we never, and we had no sex education too, so we don't talk about that either. So, you know, your parents are or anyone's parents. Mine too, regular folks never looked at that, never questioned Cinderella. And my, my tagline is Cinderella is getting laid maybe once a quarter. That's, that's not so much. We don't have the things, the sustainability that we need to, to, to make anything last. And if it does last, it's probably more comfort, comfortable and comfort and it's kind of dead. And uh for someone who, you know, is older, that's like, OK, I wanna awaken more of my arrows and come into my sexuality and, and you know, step into these places more like, uh obviously, I know this is a lot of how you support people, which I absolutely love and like, is it, is it possible, do you think that the discouragement is too strong for people? And they just kind of give up cause that, that's what I see. Sometimes people are like, oh, I can't do this and they just give up. I can't do that. I'm too old for this or I can't dress like that. They have to dress my age. What is that? Um I think some people give up. I mean, I created is to over 50 for people, over 50 to come and, and, and take a class on sexuality, spirituality and shamanism. And the over 50 crowd is wild when they finally get there. I mean, they're, they aren't as burden when they, when they decide to be free, they're not as burdened as younger people. They're not worried about whether their, their body matches up, you know, whether their breasts are ok and somebody else's breasts are bigger or smaller or somebody has a larger penis like they don't care about that anymore. They're just coming to say, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? My kids are grown. I'm not in a relationship. I'd like to have one or I don't wanna have one. I wanna be free. And the over 50 classes are ju they're a hoot. They're fabulous. You know, I had somebody, I had somebody in one of them ask for like seven minutes in heaven kind of thing. You know, like do anything to me. Everyone could come in the whole group and do anything to me that they want. I'm putting on a blindfold and I have no boundaries and I said no boundaries. And the person said, yeah, I don't want any boundaries. I just want everyone to come over and take pleasure and give pleasure on my body for seven minutes. And then at the end of, and all kinds of things happen. I don't, can't go into big descriptions, but I'm gonna say that people took some very big risks with this person and then at the end of seven minutes, everyone scattered and the person jumped up, took off her blindfold and said, I don't know what I waited for so long in my life to do something like that. What's gonna, what's gonna happen to me? So what I'm not afraid of being the class slut anymore. I'm not afraid of what people think about me anymore. I'm not afraid. I was not afraid of my own fears anymore. Like, just do to me whatever you see fit to do to me creatively and like, I'll have a blast and she did. So what, what I hear in that is actually with an older crowd. Once a certain point comes and they find that liberation is the actually the, the limitations are a lot less because there's not the Children and the, the thought around views and body and everything else is just a whole lot more freedom to get. There might be a little bit more challenging, but once that kind of bubble has popped, there's a lot more uh expression that comes through. Yes, so much and so fun. I mean, like just uh unabashed fund, so much less uptight about fitting in, worrying about what everyone else will think if I say this or I do this or whatever. Like just I already raised my kids. I already was successful in my career. I already was whatever I was. Now, it's time for me to realize that pleasure is my birthright. So yeah, fun and, and talk to someone who's listening to this, who, you know, they feel their body is getting a little bit older wrinkly and they're like, oh yeah, that's just Laurie talking about all her wild and all her wildness. Like that's not for me. And I'm just gonna, you know, I can't do this. Like, what do you say to a woman or man like that to really like, help them remember and help them actually just have the confidence even to, to show up to something like that and, and to, to get out of their own box. So it can be a really thick box they put around themselves. It can be, I say, listen one, if you could have anything you want, what would it be? What do you want? What did you, what did you want that you didn't give yourself? Are you able to give that to yourself? Now come, come and play. It's an open invitation. I do say that to people. What do you want if you could have anything? And then I say, you know, it's never too late. As long as you're walking and talking, nothing's too late. I had a guy, I mean, my oldest two participants, one is in her eighties. I mean, I think at this point she's probably 84 and I had a man, 82. He walked with a cane. It was really difficult. We were in Mexico and they built the steps of the place like a Mayan ruins. I mean, like so many steps going up with no handrail the following year. I said, listen to the, to the venue. My participants are over 50 they need a handrail. Those are scary steps. You know, people would like be, they would go arm in, arm up and down the steps together because the steps were the scariest part. Um, but people in their eighties are coming, you know, not loads of people in their eighties, but definitely people up to eighties are coming. So from 50 to 80 my father took so my father was different than most fathers. My father took my tantra class, my beginner's tantra class, which was a three day weekend. He took it in New York City when he was, I don't know, 82 or something. Yeah, he's in a video that I did. I needed an extra man in a video that I was doing like back in 2004. And so I have my father captured on video doing all the tantra practices. He because when my mother died, you know, he said, what am I gonna do? I said, well, you should come to class. So he did and he like I gave him the homework. I gave him a homework assignment of self pleasure for 21 days like masturbation for 21 days to like learn how to do ejaculation choice. And my father came back to class on day two and said I did the homework. I liked it and I can't believe who assigned it to me. My daughter, I mean, no one ever gave him permission before to touch himself. Yeah. It's such a, um, permission granted field, you know, our sexual education we get is so poor. You know, and, and that's, you looked at this younger generation now and the level of, of pornography that's so widespread and inside of people's minds and bodies and hearts and what their turn on is needing to be is just an entirely different universe compared to even from when I was younger. You know, and I found my, my dad's Playboy magazines or Hustler magazines and now it's like fast streaming, you know, one after another, uh, video online, it's, it's, it's really the level of detrimental effects that will be to the brain, to the arrows and to the bodies. I don't even think we have any real inkling on how much it's going to impact everything. Oh my God. I had, when I was, when I was doing my podcast, I had a guest who told me that at 18, he started taking Viagra to go to clubs and by 23 and watch it and he was addicted to porn and by 23 he couldn't get an erection anymore. So from 23 until 28 5 years, he had to like, be in therapy and do behavioral things and whatever to get back his natural ability to, to be sovereign in his own body. So, yeah, that's just one person who is willing to talk about it. I, I, you know, I know there's hundreds of thousands out there who are afflicted like that by their own knowing. And, you know, the, the other piece that, you know, love to speak about here, especially because I know you work a lot with couples and relationships and you know, you were saying couples as an endangered species and, and just the impact of, of porn on that as well. And just how, you know, uh endangered species, not only in communication, but you know, the, the intimacy that that's still there in the bedroom and I'd love to, you know, hear just a little bit more on your thoughts with how couples can start to bring more, you know, joy and happiness, you know, into the bedroom, into their lives and, and you know, what, what's alive for you in that frame? Well, it's a, it's amazing. I like Michael and I work with on like in three areas. One is self love. Two is love of the other three is love that manifests. So that, that's the way we work with couples. And then we work on communication, fearless communication, exquisite touch and uh oh, I'm forgetting the third one. But um we teach them how to stop building up resistance and resentment with each other, like how to dissipate that. And we do that through these things, uh fearless communication and exquisite touch. Oh, we teach them rituals. So it's two build with each other as opposed to take away, as opposed to rob each other from things just based on the fact that what I said, happily ever after doesn't exist. If you don't have any skills, how can you be happily ever after if you don't know how to talk and you don't know how to talk about sex too. So we, we show people ways to be, um, to have communication where the person doesn't hold it against you forever that you said this, whatever, this is like how to say the worst and hardest things to each other inside of a ritual where you get to do it as many times as you have to do it to, to clear everything that's building up because mostly I'd say people start to build resentment when they don't speak their truth. Like if you're, if I'm in a couple with you and you do something and I let it slide. I hated it, but I let it slide because like after all, I'm supposed to just unconditionally love you and accept you. Of course, the thing you did pissed me off. Um And then I just, it festers if I don't say anything. So most of, most of the stuff that, that starts to get in the way is undelivered communication or thwarted communication. I tried to say it to you I tried to say, you know, that sex wasn't so great but your ego, I'm just saying this to you, Aaron. But you know, I don't mean you, your ego was so little. It was so disempowered that I, the minute I said something you got like, oh you know an attitude about it. And so I never dared to try and tell you again. So those things fester and they blow up and then they cause resistance. Like first there's first there's there's just some resentment but then resistance. So then you wanna do something great. And I'm like, no, I don't wanna do that with you. Mm Well, yeah, no, I don't want to do that with you and then eventually it blows up and I, I want to get revenge. So we teach people how to say the things and bring them, bring it all up, all of it. Say it all get it off your chest on the table, the per and we teach people not to argue with it to just like hear it and listen to it and how to receive it and acknowledge it and and look to see, oh it wasn't so bad, you know it, it's not so terrible. It will be terrible. The divorce that it'll cost you is terrible. But this is not that terrible if you can just like sit with it and have some rules of engagement. So we give people rules of engagement much like boundaries and consent and we have them clean it out, clean out all the rubble and then talk about how they're going forward in the future. And we teach them, you know, and you know, my thing, yoga boxing, we teach some yoga. Boxing. Yoga, boxing is good because it slows everything down. It's one word, one punch. And so if I'm mad at you and I'm saying it like this, you don't feel like I'm chopping your head off and you can hear it and then you can box back and it slows some things down. So we've had tremendous success with people. As a matter of fact, you were at my wedding and it's funny because someone at my wedding said Laurie, I haven't seen you in a few years. What are you up to these days? What's this couple stuff? And I said, you see that couple, we saved their marriage. See, that couple, we saved their marriage. You see that there was about five or six couples at, at the wedding whose marriages Michael and I saved, you know, um, just like either they just were together for so long that they had no sexual spark anymore or there was so much, there were people that there was a few people there that have been married for 40 years or more and they had so much water under the bridge, we had to like give them a open the governor and let the steam. It not at all so much stuff. Yeah. I mean, that's such a consistent theme and people, instead of actually confronting situations, you know, I, I work with a wide range of different couples. Some married for 3040 years, some, you know, younger couples. And that theme is there. It's like, instead of actually addressing something right away, it's like, oh, let me just build that up until finally it's like, it explodes and it, it's like too much to handle and then everything else hits the, hits the roof and the, there's no real direction forward because the nervous system gets overwhelmed, you know. Yeah. Or shuts down. They start to build armor on their heart, which isn't so difficult to do. They, as they close, they start closing, closing, closing and then they wake up one day and go, like, what am I doing here? Who is this person? I thought I'd love this person, you know? But really it's, I blame it all on lack of education and lack of what's important, like valuing what's really important. I don't know about you. Look, I know you were a ship captain. Maybe you used algebra and geometry. I don't know. Aaron, I don't know what a ship captain does. There was a lot of mathematics on the ship. Yes. Yes. I figured there might have been but, you know, I don't use it in my life. I use it to see how many men are in a class and how many women are in the class and if we divide them into how many pairs that would be, that's the most of my algebra. You know what I mean? Divided by two or divided into three is how many groups does that make? That's what I do with math and my life. And of course, you know, I don't even bother to balance my checkbook. So I, like I needed to learn how to communicate love. I needed to learn how to communicate. You're important to me. How do I make this work? You know? And even if I'm not in a closed relationship, like not in a monogamous relationship, every pair is a pair. If I'm polly, every pair is a pair and I still need to know how to talk to that one that I'm with right now. And the next one that I'm with right now, like it's always two intimate people. How do we talk? How do we say? How do we say? Listen, it's traumatic the first time somebody says no to the other person, you know, in the, in the, in the seventies, I used to teach assertiveness. Now, assertiveness, assertiveness training. And I used to say to people say no in an early relationship right away. Like you want to go to dinner, no, wanna go to the movies. No. And they'd say, why do I want to say no? And I want to say yes and I say, just say no. So you see you survive. So then when you have to say no, when it's really important, no one dies, you have some tools for it. Yeah, for sure. So a couple of questions coming up one and then someone wrote in the question too as well. But first question like around this principle of marriage now that you're married, Laurie handler, how, how, how do you observe? Because I see a lot of times I see couples that have been together for sometimes 5, 10 years and get married and actually the marriage creates a whole bunch of other issues and stuff. And I really see some people that are very dedicated to the principal and to the the framework of marriage and everything that it means. And there's a lot of different schools of thoughts around it. Obviously, there was a very clear decision you made about. Ok, now is the time I'm going to get married. But how do you feel like this impacts couples? And do you feel like marriage is, is essential for a couple to have like a deep commitment? Um It's interesting that you asked me that I don't feel like it is. Um and I was never gonna get married. Michael asked me, I mean, he took me by surprise. We were at another wedding and we were witnessing these two people get married and you know, it was beautiful, it was a gorgeous wedding and we were in Austin and later that evening at their reception, he asked me to marry him in a Porta potty. So I was a captive audience because it was me that had to go. And so I was just like, what you're asking me to marry you? Are you crazy? We didn't have that in our agreements. We didn't have that conversation in our RB DS M. That, that's not your outside protocol. Like, no, no, no, no, we both agreed that we would never do that. So when he asked me, it was really strange for me. And do I think, I mean, I see it's a new fad. I mean, it was the pendulum was swinging. Always, like seemed away from marriage for as long as I've been since college to now, which is quite a few a span of years. Um But now it feels like the at least the millennials feel like they're getting married. Like I know loads of millennials getting married. Um Do I feel like it's essential? No, I don't, what I feel is essential. I do feel like it's essential to feel loved and to feel like I feel I've always felt like it was essential to have a special person. Like when I was, when I was having multiple people that felt ok, but that felt like for me, it felt like I was biting my time until I found somebody I really, really cared about. Um And when I, when Michael and I met there were other people that I had interest in and there were other people that I was seeing and some people that I was having sex with and I noticed when they came to visit me, like I would look at my watch, I'd be like, oh, when is this going to be over? It shifted for me. It really shifted for me because I felt like the way Michael met me was different from the way anybody else ever met me. And that may, that felt a little bit like, and it may have still been Walt Disney's Cinderella stuff, you know it, I I'm willing to attribute that, that influenced me tremendously. And I don't know anyone who I grew up with or even anyone around the world, he Walt Disney influenced everyone. I don't know anyone that, that didn't influence. So I feel like when I met Michael and he met me so powerfully I felt like I met my match and I didn't feel like anyone else um met me that way and I then I wasn't interested in, in being with anybody. I mean, he said one time he said to me, we have an open relationship and you're not seeing anyone. And I, I said to my, no, what's wrong with you? You need to go fuck other people. Laurie. I said to him, I'm bored, I'm bored with other people now. Mhm So, so he went, oh I said, I'm not telling you what to do you do whatever you want. But I, this is the way I feel. And then eventually he started to feel like that too. Like it wouldn't, there was no manipulation going on between us. We were just like open and honest and straight about it, whatever it was. So I don't, I like, I feel like people, I feel like being loved. This is the, I feel like being loved, being seen, being cherished, feeling special, feeling, respected, feeling met our basic human needs now more than ever because so many people are scrolling and they're swiping and they're doing these things that were never in the world before and that doesn't make people feel very good. The dopamine from Facebook likes isn't as exciting as being met by another human and feeling like, wow, this person has me. They get me. I just feel like that's a basic human need. Hm. Hm. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I, um, what I really heard and what you were sharing is that a point came that you recognized in being met that you were able to actually fully choose and allow yourself to be fully chosen. And there was a joy in that and uh and almost a, a freedom in that in of itself because the door was open, but there wasn't a desire to necessarily walk outside the doors actually to deepen with the one that you were with. So, yeah, honoring and celebrating that. Thank you. I mean, that's really what it came to. I didn't, it was not, I didn't effort at it. It just kind of, it unfolded that way and never, I mean, I mean, when we met we both very unlikely candidates for each other. You know, I'm like, I'm like this active person. He's more like a couch potato. I'm, you know, I'm, I travel all the time. I'm out there in the world. He's more like, secluded and untrusting of the masses and the crowds and whatever. So we're like, our values are so, some of them are the, exactly the same and some of them are so different. And the fact that we chose each other surprised us also. I'm older than him. I'm 21 years older than him. And, um, and he was like, I can't date anyone. My mother's age. I said, well, I, I think I'm older than her. You know, it turns out I wasn't but, but like he doesn't, I mean, he, like, there's no question about how much he loves me. There's just no, like no question in, in my entire being in any cell of my body. Like he just, he resisted it and then he just grew to love me. Beautiful. Also. I didn't try to manipulate him. I didn't try to get him to be anyway, other than what he is. So he is. Well, II, I love that, that you say that because that's, yeah, that's the area. I think I see a lot of couples, you know, suffering is, is trying to make the relationship something it's not. And you know, I think the question around that is, you know, when you see couples coming in and one of them has been cheating or, you know, doing things behind the other's back, like do you feel in those situations there is a place for people to um, I mean, I think there's always a place to come back into some level of harmony but are the, the, the tears and the stars out when that happened for, for, for couples? Like where is the, the, the repair that that's possible? And, or is it just like that the decision making of that person actually saying? No, I'm going outside this relationship because I'm not actually being fulfilled or is that just an animal? Yeah, curious. Your thoughts. Oh, it's so difficult. Oh my God, that's a lot. Um Well, first of all, just quote Michael, Michael says that everybody needs a little strange. I love that. Who was that? So, um So that's like the bottom line of that and uh can things be repaired? Yeah. First of all, I can't like, I, I would, I would coach people not to try and manipulate another person to be something that they're not like to deal with. What's so and they'll grow if they choose to grow or they won't, if they choose not to grow but to try and subtly manipulate them like a, like Michael's not my project. I'm not his project. I, I didn't go into it. Going. This person has potential and now I'm gonna try and unlock an amazing potential this man has. He's so good. I should just see how great he can become one day. He could be so good if I just love him enough, if I just love him enough. Yeah, that's the wrong. I would caution anyone from that. That's not the right attitude. No one should be your project. Um And then when men have the same one where it, it plays out a little differently, women have the, this man has so much potential. I'm just gonna unlock him through my love and men have the, I'm gonna save this woman. I, I have a heart on when a woman is in distress, there's a damsel in distress and I have to rescue her and I'm gonna make her. Yes, I'm gonna make her good. Uh No, those things don't work at all at all like that. It's better to be alone. It's better to be single. Uh then to try and make somebody a project or rescue somebody. We call that Captain Sao. I don't know if you, you have that expression but that, that doesn't work like uh I have friends who they do that over and over and over and over again and then they, they wonder why the woman or the women in their life after they cut them off, they've been rescuing them with money or whatever. And then when the man cuts them off because they realize they, they, they're a tool. They've been being used. The woman doesn't ever speak to them again and they're like, why are my last five relationships don't speak to me anymore. Well, you were daddy and you cut them off. Daddy's not supposed to cut them off. So this is the wrong premise to have a relationship. It's just, it just doesn't work. Um, so I would say not to manipulate to just be straight who you are. This is who I am. These are my boundaries. These are my limitations. These are the things, these are my values. This is what I love. Let's meet on these. And if we don't have enough of those in common, then it's just a one night stand or a few night stand, but don't try to make it into something. It's not something, it's now you're going to try to border collie the person into being something that they're not, can't do. It doesn't work. But yeah. Yeah. No. And, and, you know, we kind of touched upon a little bit but this, the, these conversations of, of open relating, you know, I'm, I've been in deeply committed monogamous relationships. You know, the current relationship I'm in is much, is more open. Um, that for me, one of the first times where I'm more deeply relating and consciously also having other lovers and connections and yeah, it's almost like trying on new shoes and a new way of communication and learning a lot along the way and discovering and, and finding the way and I'm curious, like your lessons and learnings and, and also what you see around open relating, that's such a broad framework. And I, I do see a lot of open relating where one partner doesn't want to open, relate and they're only staying just because they're afraid of losing love with that partner. Um So just a question inside of it is like, do you think you can actually work wholeheartedly in beautiful, um, synergy and, and, and connection? Yeah, I absolutely do. Um I'm not an expert on that. I'll just say I, I, you know, I'm not like I'm not the, the, you know, the front page of Open Relating. I, I'm not a child, you know, but I think it can work and I think it takes a lot of work. I think all relationships take a lot of work like you have to roll your sleeves up and dig in whatever format you're choosing. And um communication is king to, to, to say, oh, I omitted or I didn't interpret things like I needed to tell you or whatever it is that those things don't work. My experience with people close to me, those things don't work like you, everything has to be disclosed just the same way as I feel like in my relationship, everything has to be disclosed. Communication is the key to all that. And then Michael and I like to think of seduction as a team sport. So usually there's one seducer in a relationship and the other person is like the pillow prince or the pillow princess. They wait to get seduced. But no, both people or all the people have to be into the, you know, the seduction thing. I, I can, you know, I think it's just, it, I think open relating makes sense. And I think that, uh, you know, Debra Anapol wrote a book. Uh I think her book was polyamory for the 21st century and she might have written a book called More Love. And I, I mean, it was right. I mean, we're all so needy of Love and we don't hardly get enough. So I think how, whatever form it takes and how to get it. It's good. It's just that it's gonna like for just two, it's really hard. So then when you open it up to a pod, let's say of 12 or however many people, it's so big, however many people you're relating to it takes, it takes like pristine communication, like the epitome of, of, of speaking your truth so that everybody knows where they stand and everybody knows and nobody's playing games and I think it's tough. Yeah, I think so. What I, what I really hear in that is that there's a tremendous amount of truth, honesty and transparency and, you know, II, I see couples sometimes there where their foundation isn't so good and they're like, oh, let's just try open relating that will make it better. It's like, hm, I don't know how well that's gonna work. Not so much. Listen, other people say, oh, I know we're having a problem. Let's have a baby, you know, or let's buy a new house or let's, you know, like usually at, like when I used to work at Landmark, we used to say, ever notice how people's solution becomes the problem. So like there's a problem that's never dealt with. And then we say, I know we'll do this and they have a solution and the solution becomes the next problem and then the solution to that becomes the next problem. So, yeah, I don't know if open relating is a solution that for everybody. I, I don't think it is. I think it's really good for therapists, you know, with lots to work on. Yeah, I think there's like a lot of therapists who are engaged these days because so many people are, have issues with it. It's very difficult to pull off. I think any relating is difficult to pull off, parents and Children lovers. Um, whatever it is. Yeah. Amazing. And you know, to the, to the, the new young girls watching the, the Walt Disney movies and seeing the Walt Disney movies. I have to do a hand screen, emotional release on camera. Yes. Yes. Well done. Um, don't listen, I mean, don't buy into it. You cannot get the prints without having communication skills and the prince cannot get you without having communication skills. And he didn't even know how to find the foot that was missing the slipper like that already shows something you need skills and you need to know, you need a format for how to talk about sex. You need to know how to talk about what you want, what you don't want, what you won't tolerate, what you would love. You need all of that and nothing in our background gives us that all they tell you is how to prevent pregnancy and how to prevent getting STIs. You don't know the least thing about talking about it and you need to get that as a skill as something that you can be open about before you, you know, can relate. And this, this fairy tale is just that a fairy tale. It was me, you know, you know, that Walt Disney met with the government, the government met with Walt Disney and certainly told him things that they wanted programmed into us going down a conspiracy rabbit hole now. But yes, um there were messages that television programs gave us starting in the fifties and he was a big part of it. I used to, I, you know, I used to have women's groups where I used to put on the song, someday my prince will come and we used to dance with each other as a waltz. And I would say, ok, that's the end of this song and that's the end of that dream. Like he's not coming because there he isn't it, there isn't one. And should he miraculously show up? He's not gonna be trying to put a slipper on your foot. He's gonna have communication skills. He's gonna be able to have a, a post game report after good love making. Right. Exactly. Exactly. What was the best part of the game? What was the worst part of the game? Where were the fumbles? Yes. Exactly. Like the Monday night football, you know, recap. Yes. And he's, and he's able to actually talk about these things. So, are you listening? It's a great thing to have a, a post game report is something, you know, um, we, we do a lot of the bedroom as well, actually, especially in this, this, you know, relationship. She really has something that she brought in a lot and it's beautiful. It's been amazing to really have that because it sees, you know, and sometimes I found even for myself that, you know, those little things and I was like, oh, you know, I'll just let that slide, but actually communicating that with love and presence and awareness, it's made the intimacy, you know, more deeper and more profound. So, yeah. So, yeah, and if you're having trouble with that, then you should come see Aaron or myself like we know how to tell you how to have that conversation. That's what we do. That's what we're in the business of improving your sex life, but it improves your whole life. Mhm. Mhm. Tell me about that. How does it just, just, just I hear people saying that and I, like I say it myself. So you know how, how you improve, prove in the bedroom improves the other areas of life. But actually like on a physiological level, like where, where, where does that relate? Especially for those, you know, brains that are questioning that. So uh sex isn't just about sex. Sex is could be just about sex, but it isn't. And um the there's a few things when we have sex with another person, when we run sexual energy on our bodies where we release chemicals that our brain needs. So we release dopamine, endorphins, serotonin and Oxytocin. All of those things are needed in our bodies and needed in our brains. By the way, for people aging, whether you have a partner or not, you need those chemicals in your brain like on a constant basis, which is an argument for self pleasure. These are free and they belong to us and we have two of them. So uh so we need the chemical. So on a chemical level, sexuality is really important for our bodies and for our lives on a, on a communication level. Sexuality plays a really big part in us, feeling valued and loved and, and acknowledged and met and seen and felt and on a self expression level, we need sexuality to express our desires. And again, like uh just making sound and doing breath and doing movement. The tantric way, it makes us more open and sexuality is the center of our creativity. So for me, the way I look at it is if we are not using our creativity, then we are not happy. So the reason I wrote the books, both books are called Sex and Happiness is because sex creates happiness when we use our creative life force, not just to make babies, but but to create everything, to create our communication, to create our ideas, to create our businesses, to create our thoughts, all invention, all creativity comes from the sex center and we have a frontal cortex. So dolphins have sex, you know, other animals have sex, but they don't have the same frontal cortex with us. We're the only species that can also make computers, we can make babies and we can have cars, we can make airplanes and computers and big boats. And um and if we are not moving sexual energy, then we're not necessarily happy because our creativity isn't being tapped. So it's all connected. But it's funny that when people come to Tonto, you may notice this Aaron people come to Tonto and they want this new kind of like esoteric way of having sex. And they don't understand that that's just the portal to opening up the whole enchilada. I mean, that's where we come from, which is a miracle and scientists don't know how to explain it. And that's where everything else that we invent comes from. That you're on headphones and I have a microphone and we're looking at each other through zoom that all can or whatever we're on, we're not on zoom. But what, what, what whatever it is that all came from somebody's creativity, which is lodged in the sex center, which is the same place we go to have pleasure. Pleasure. Yeah. Pleasure is our birthright. Yes. Pleasure, creativity, good hormones, good life, sex and happiness. I mean, i it's definitely my intention is to either have self pleasure or to make love every day. And I think I do a good job of that. I, you know, I just turned 41. This, this last, this last year, I feel like I'm younger and more vibrant and healthier than I, you know, was sometimes at 20. So I, I feel I feel good sex is definitely a big part of that. That's awesome. You look terrific but it's unfortunately not close, closer to 50. So you could come to Insta over 50. Eventually, eventually you'll be there for sure, but you'll be there and you'll laugh, you'll laugh your ass because you'll see how funny it is and people over 50 are like, not so concerned with certain things. Yeah, it's beautiful. I am excited. We have a couple of upcoming training in Croatia we're doing together. Level one. There were just some other exciting ones coming up the head. It's always a joy when, when you and I get to be in the same space and laugh. Yeah. Don't come to it. If you don't want to laugh, you don't want to go to something else. Go to something more serious. We like my thing is to have you laugh while you're looking at yourself in hard ways. Like laugh your way through transformation. It's much better than cry. I mean, you can cry too. You can laugh and cry. But I like to have people laugh at themselves at how seriously they take everything. I remember a very strong laughing moment after going through the whole program down in New Zealand with Bruce and Haydn. And we're at like our final finale and our big showcase of our soul and I was just laughing for a long time at the cosmic joke of this crazy universe that we're living in on the spinning rock in the middle of nowhere. And here we are having a conversation about sex and happiness. It's like all there is at the end of the day, it's just a to laugh. It's like what the, what the fuck is actually going on. Exactly. The cosmic joke. Exactly. So, yeah. Yeah, this is this is good and you know, hope, what was the question, by the way that somebody wrote in, oh, they were asking about um uh infidelity. And that was the question that you asked, listen, everything can be repaired. And also if you take it so seriously, like it's inhuman or whatever, let me just say that it's very human. What I said, Michael said, everybody needs a little strange. It's not, it depends on how big of a deal it is. It depends on how, but if somebody then comes and cleans it up with you get over it like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. It's happened to the best of us. It's happened to me. It's happened to all of us and it's like, ok, maybe it's too much to ask that a person just stay with one person for forever, ever, ever, ever, ever like that. Yeah. And just be honest and be honest with yourself more than anything. I mean, that's where I'm at more than, more than anything right now in my own relating is just being really honest and clear and it's challenging sometimes having conversations that I know, you know, aren't necessarily gonna feel good for the other person, you know, individuals I'm relating with. But I know that I need to stay in my own integrity because if I'm, if I'm trying to do something just to make them happy or just to say the right thing or make those decisions that I know, are gonna make them happier in a, in, in a sense, but not actually happier because it's just in many ways the illusion of that because I'm not being in my truth or keeping me out of my truth and it's creating an illusion of something I think they want to hear. And, you know, the, the pleasing side of me has done that for way too long. But, um, yeah, it doesn't work so well anymore. Very good. I'm so glad you let that one go. Yeah. Yeah. People are human. That's all they're human and inside of humanness, many, many things happen and there's no, there really is no code of conduct. There's just what agreements do you have and what do you want to create? And if you could have anything, what would it be? And if you would choose this person and this person needs to be with other people, then see if you can make that work. Yeah. So amazing. So anything else you'd like to share any? Uh is there, is there another butch on, on the way down the road? Yes. Tell me there is, this is the third one in the series and then there's another one also. So the third in the series is going to be sex and happiness for couples. And it's gonna be the story of extraordinary lovers, how you become an extraordinary lover and extraordinary just takes a little extra like ordinary as regular things like fighting and disagreeing and holding, withholding communication and it just takes a little extra to be extraordinary. So we're gonna be writing a book about being extraordinary. And then I found a book that I wrote long ago, which I'm going to publish on my, uh on my website, I have a portal called Laurie's Inner Circle. And I wrote a book called The Owner's Manual. And, you know, when you buy a car, you get a manual, it's this thick. But when you get a body, you don't get one. Ok. So a long time ago, I wrote a the owner's manual, which is like, you know, these are the windshields, you know, this is my windshield and my headlights and then my heart is the steering wheel. And I make, I compare the body to all the parts of a car. And I talk about maintenance, how you maintain these parts of the body and what they do and how you operate them. So I'm going to publish that probably on my inner circle portal. Yeah. Yeah, I just found it. I forgot about it. So I also wrote a book called How To Stop Suffering in 30 Days. And I, I have to find that I don't know where it is right now. In those days, I remember like just a lot of people suffering. So I'm definitely from people laughing now. It's suffering. I love that. Uh You're still continuing to create and laugh and love and make love and share your, your love and your gifts and all your joy into the world. It, it's brought so much joy having you in my life. I love our friendship. I love our conversations. And I also really love that, you know, we can laugh and, you know, I know I can come to you with, you know, serious things and, and really get, you know, the quality of your heart and the quality of your experience. And I just love all the different places that we can meet each other. That really means a lot. I'm breathing that in. Thank you. That's so good. So, thanks. I can I offer people a gift? Of course, if you go to my website Laurie handlers.com, you will see that you can get a workbook called Mastering your Boundaries. And so you can get a way to like if you're somebody who doesn't know what your boundaries are or you have trouble expressing them. This workbook is simple and sweet and to the point it gives you a lot of questions about where do you see that you're angry and where does it? Where did your boundaries get trespass? Where didn't you say anything? Who do you need to say something to and so on? So it's a master in your boundaries workbook. It's free. It gives you a little glimpse into my inner circle and you know, just go there and get it. It's, it's so easy and you might as well have boundaries. That's the big buzzword these days. So go get them great. I love that you're offering that and what a great, great tool and gift for people. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for you all of that you are and uh always a pleasure. Loved your conversation and uh thank you for tuning in. This is another great conversation and love sex and leadership. See you next time. Bye bye. Uh.